From: Wacko@TheEdge.com
Subject: Re: Libertarian Facism (was Re: libertarian drivel)
Date: 15 Jun 1995 07:33:20 GMT

In article <3rnmbu$jog@news.umbc.edu>,
   gmoore1@umbc.edu (moore geoffrey ( undc)) wrote:

>Carriages and Trains existed. They just built the automobile and called
>it something new.

A carriage isn't a car. Did the steel shaped doors on the car exist in nature 
AS steel shaped doors for an '88 Buick Skylark?

Guess someone created the car, didn't they?

>You are the one changing the structure. I said society would rise
>against you.

Why? Because each individual was free to do as they wished with their lives? 
So, they would rise up and demand that someone enslave them?

Gee, what reeducation camp ARE you going to?

>: TRILLIONS, and in fact, trillions MORE than you have...
>but changing it would cost quadrillions.

Hardly. Changing it would require spending LESS money than we currently spend.
If you stop spending the money, the society MUST change...

>Since they are living in a libertarian society surrounding them, that's not
>true.

You forgot about those few wandering statists and dictators....

>humans are born stupid. humans are born free from what?

Interesting comment from a human. Do you consider yourself born stupid? And, 
do you think that you learned intelligence when someone convinced you to chain 
yourself in slavery? Humans are not born free FROM anything. Humans are born 
free TO DO anything they want and can physically manage. 

>last time I saw
>you required them to pay taxes for your police structure,

No, YOU force people to pay taxes. I ALLOW people to pay taxes.

>which STILL doesn't
>protect from a criminal class, in which the criminal only pays back what
>they stole.

Actually, THEY protect themselves from individual criminals. You see, MY
populace is ARMED. I do not use a gun to disarm my fellow man...

>It's cheaper in your society to be a criminal than to be someone
>who disagrees. Now whos the tyrant?

So, why not be someone who AGREES, and do what you like to make your life as 
good as you see fit to make it?

>: They get to keep whatever they own. 
>Wht do they own, if everything they gain is by method of trampling the
>previous *owner* or *inheritance* of the trampling?

That is illegal. You cannot "trample" anyone, or steal any property, and you 
certainly do not become the owner of property by stealing it.

>So everyone gets what they stole before the country was founded and lo and
>behold a new country determines these goods are now under their ownership.

Who stole property from you? Last time I checked, most of the colleges were 
supported by STOLEN funds. 

>My question was to initial distribution....

Do you own property now? If so, its yours. Do you desire property that someone 
else owns? It ain't yours. If you want it, buy it.

>We can apply that to any social structure today, such as agreement doesn't
>matter, so long as the rules are followed.

And that would be true, except that the current rules require me to be a slave 
to another human. Now, while you can certainly maintain such a society for a 
short time (historically speaking), it won't last for very long. Do you want 
to be the guy that the revolting slaves hang from the tree?

>Since if you are free, though,
>by default, your system should not be in place. If you don't follow
>rules set up arbitrarily by someone else, it seems quite likely the
>same tyranny you are suggesting that others are placing on you.

I cannot remain free without a system which protects mutual respect of 
freedom. Those pesky tyrants and statists, remember? As for arbitrary rules, 
do you think theft SHOULD be legal? How about murder? Rape? Do you think there
will be a significant number of people who DO think so?

>life isn't free? Earlier you said humans were born free.

They are. Living, however, requires work...

>Since the law is only a piece of paper regulating the police,it's hard to
>imagine, except in cartoons, a piece of paper regulating an active militia.
>See the recent hotel sexual harassment in CNN, NBC, ect.

See the military trial that followed. The lawsuit was against the hotel, since 
the young woman in question expected the hotel to be responsible for every 
criminal action committed by any patron of the hotel. Interesting, since the
hotel cannot enforce any laws. The military can, and does. And, in case you
haven't been around very much, ask any police officer to shoot a stranger for
no reason, and see what he tells you about the feasibility of doing so and NOT
getting punished.

>So the criminal class can steal from the worker, and pay the police to
>keep their goods from being taken during the time they might go to jail.

No, since the police already get paid to put the criminal in jail, and he 
won't be able to pay the police FROM jail.

>But then they pay off the judges directly. But then they just do the policing
>themself, taking the goods directly out of others houses for protection.

Nope, since judges get paid by the citizens, samne as cops. And, it will be
difficult to carry property out of a house while dodging bullets from the gun
of the OWNER of the house, won't it?

You see, YOU disarm your populace because you worry that they will rise up
against the tyrants (you) to gain their freedom. I allow the populace to be
armed, because they will not rise up if they are already free...

>deported to where? The foreign countries don't want them.

Gee, I guess they'll have to swim a VERY long time, won't they?

>And do they take their goods with them that they produced even though
>they didn't agree to your society in the first place?

If they had goods, they probably wouldn't be stealing them, would they?

>And YES, there is a criminal class, because you stated that they should
>not be charged for any more than the crime they commit, which
>multiplied by the percentage chnace they get caught, ensures that a criminal
>class is evident.

Not really. Do you know what the percentage of solved crimes is? I didn't 
think so. Our problem is not in solving crimes, it is in keeping criminals in 
prison. 85% of felonies are committed by convicted felons. Eliminate parole,
and crime drops 85% TOMORROW!

There won't BE a criminal class, except in prison. Steal $50.00? One YEAR in
prison. Steal $1000.00? 20 years in prison. No probation, no parole, no
excuses. You pay back the victim, and THEN you pay society...

>You said earlier everyone agreed to the system. Now you say it's not a world
>system. I have an idea. Let's just go over to another country, start
>some slavery, take their goods, no ones looking, and since they are a foreign
>country and their labor is cheaper, protect ourself from the goods they
>produced, by an economic system we cheat on daily.

Sorry, I don't believe in enslaving people. I don't care if they are citizens
or not, they are people. I do not enslave human beings, and I do not tolerate
humans trying to enslave me. So, live and let live, or you kill me before I
kill you. Which one do you choose? Please choose one, because there is NO
other option...

It is that simple. THAT is Libertarian Society. You allow me to be free, and I
allow you to be free, or we try to kill each other and see which one survives.

Are you ready to DIE to enslave me? 

Because I am damn well ready to die resisting you...